This a dead hand??

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Andreww2368	This a dead hand??	Lead	[-]
Member Posts: 15 (05/17/08 01:31) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I am a poker room supervisor but only have been for about a year. Previous pit and poker dealer. Player seat 1 goes all in pre-flop 175.00 Player seat 8 calls his all in and then tries to flip his cards over and i card is face down over the line. He then tries a 2nd time to turn the card over but it still is face down. Player seat 7 reaches over the line and turns it over for the player. The two cards are pocket AA. I declared the hand dead. Since another player is not allowed to touch a players hand. Do you think this is a correct ruling? It doesn't matter what the hand was.
Psand		#1	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (05/17/08 03:33) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Andreww2368 wrote: I am a poker room supervisor but only have been for about a year. Previous pit and poker dealer. Player seat 1 goes all in pre-flop 175.00 Player seat 8 calls his all in and then tries to flip his cards over and i card is face down over the line. He then tries a 2nd time to turn the card over but it still is face down. Player seat 7 reaches over the line and turns it over for the player. The two cards are pocket AA. I declared the hand dead. Since another player is not allowed to touch a players hand. Do you think this is a correct ruling? It doesn't matter what the hand was. This is a terrible ruling. you have a player that is trying to table his hand but apparently having difficulty doing it. According to your account the player was clearly not mucking his hand he was just having a hard time getting the card over. So another player reached over and helped him do what he was obviously trying to do. SFW? why would that kill a hand? Do you understand why a player is not supposed to turn over another players cards? It is because that player may have been intending to muck his cards unseen, so if another player flips the cards over he is making a decision for that player and that is not allowed. Now apply that reasoning to this situation. The guy was helping out a player who by your account was trying to get his cards over. Ideally he wouldn't have done this (unless the player requested help because of some sort of disability) but when he did was it really that big a deal? NO. A simple "please don't do that in the future" surely would have sufficed: And even if this was an egregious violation it makes no sense to kill the hand. The player whose hand it was didn't do anything to suggest he was surrendering his hand, if you kill his hand because another player turned it over you are punishing the wrong player for the rule violation. If you feel a rule has to be enforced here beyond telling the player not to do that again the way you handle it is to bring the offending player (the guy who turned over the cards) a rack and tell him it is time he cashed out because he is done for the evening. As a general rule of thumb . . . anytime you declare the worst hand at showdown as a winner you probably made a bad decision.
VitaiSlade		#2	[-]
Member Posts: 42 (05/17/08 11:05) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I agree. Had I been the player trying to flip over my cards, I would have been furious. Granted, you are supposed to protect your hand as a player, but when the action has already been called and you are trying to show up your cards, the cards are still live. Did the cards touch the muck? Was there any inclination that this other player was helping beyond the point of just "flipping the cards over"? If not, this was a very very bad call. If the person was an older man or woman, or someone with a slight disability, it was obscenely worse. Sorry to be blunt, but that is my take on things.
Andreww2368		#3	[-]
Member Posts: 15 (05/17/08 03:19) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What would u do if the dealer flipped over the card for the player? Is it not the players responsibility to show both cards face up? I have seen it where a player flips his cards over and one lands face down over the line and the floor supervisor said it was a dead hand. You as a player are always suppose to protect your hand. After the 2nd time he tried to flip it over he didn't make an effort to reach and turn the card over again. He let his friend turn it over for him. I understand i might have made a bad call. After the player left that turned the card over the players on the table also agree another player should never touch another players cards. It is your own responsibility to show both cards face up.
Psand		#4	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (05/17/08 06:35) Moderator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	What would u do if the dealer flipped over the card for the player? Well it depends,. If the dealer was turning over the cards in this situation where it was obvious that the player was trying to turn them up and just physically wasn't able to, I would see no problem with it. If the dealer was turning them up because he thought the player had the best hand and was trying to help him out by making sure he didn't muck, I wouldn't kill the hand, but the dealer would need to be addressed in private and corrected. If the player was clearly attempting to muck the hand and the dealer for some unknown reason flipped them up, that would be the case where I might call the hand dead . . . but only if I believed that the player was clearly relinquishing his hand. Is it not the players responsibility to show both cards face up? Yes but that does not mean you kill the hand simply because someone selse turned them face up. I have seen it where a player flips his cards over and one lands face down over the line and the floor supervisor said it was a dead hand. well thats an atrocious ruling, however I understand that if your boss tells you to make bad decisions you are obligated to make bad decisions . . . Not really your fault. You as a player are always suppose to protect your hand Agreed. But what does that have to do with this? Protect your hand form people helping you turn over a card that ypou After the player left that turned the card over the players on the table also agree another player should never touch another players cards I would generally agree with this (though there are circumstances where it isn't that bad). there are lots of things that players aren't supposed to do, there are ways to address them that don't involve killing hands.
VitaiSlade		#5	[-]
Member Posts: 42 (05/17/08 09:23) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	-What would u do if the dealer flipped over the card for the player? The dealer should never flip over a card for the player, period. That is the dealers fault if he/she does this. If this does happen, however, I would agree with exactly what psand said. -Is it not the players responsibility to show both cards face up? Yes, it is the players responsibility to turn them both face up, but if he is, for whatever reason, unable to turn them face up and another player flips them up for him or her in an act of kindness, helping him or her, it should not kill the hand. -I have seen it where a player flips his cards over and one lands face down over the line and the floor supervisor said it was a dead hand. The floor supervisor made a terrible call in this instance. -You as a player are always suppose to protect your hand. After the 2nd time he tried to flip it over he didn't make an effort to reach and turn the card over again. He let his friend turn it over for him. Yes, you are supposed to protect your hand, I already made that point. When the action has already been called and you are trying to show up your cards, the cards are still live. If you are unable to flip them up and someone makes a gesture to help flip up the cards, it should not kill the hand. It should not be done, and a warning should be issued, but once again, there is no reason to kill it. -After the player left that turned the card over the players on the table also agree another player should never touch another players cards. It is your own responsibility to show both cards face up. Yes, you should never ever touch anyone else's cards. But you should punish the one touching other players cards, not the one who gets his cards touched. You should issue a warning to the player(s) and let them know not to do that. Killing the hand was punishing the wrong person.
canadaboy		#6	[-]
Member Posts: 2 (05/18/08 06:36) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Don't be such a rule nazi. Spot 7 was in violation, not the player in the hand. If you use this rule as you did, it sets up terrible ways for someone to tank someone elses hand by simply reaching over when the player is not watching and dumping his cards on him.Yes you are supposed to protect your hand, but in a heads up, all in situation, theres no need to drag the rule book out and and beat people with it.
VitaiSlade		#7	[-]
Member Posts: 42 (05/18/08 08:20) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	canadaboy wrote: If you use this rule as you did, it sets up terrible ways for someone to tank someone elses hand by simply reaching over when the player is not watching and dumping his cards on him. I thought the same thing, but failed to put it into my post. I agree completely.
OKcardslinger		#8	[-]
Member Posts: 704 (05/18/08 08:26) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Andreww2368 wrote: I am a poker room supervisor but only have been for about a year. Previous pit and poker dealer. Player seat 1 goes all in pre-flop 175.00 Player seat 8 calls his all in and then tries to flip his cards over and i card is face down over the line. He then tries a 2nd time to turn the card over but it still is face down. Player seat 7 reaches over the line and turns it over for the player. The two cards are pocket AA. I declared the hand dead. Since another player is not allowed to touch a players hand. Do you think this is a correct ruling? It doesn't matter what the hand was. You mention the line, I assume you are referring to the betting line. Our room has a betting line but it is not 'muck line", it only is used to determine what constitutes a bet. Also, as Psand said, this is a terrile ruling. The player called an all in and was trying to show his hand first, which I got from your posting. WIth that in mind, why would you look for a reason to kill the hand? What did the player do wrong, from your posting, I see nothing that he did wrong. Killing a hnad is absolutely the last resrt and ecen if the player did something wrong, the hand isn;t dead, they punish the player after the fact unless there is colllusion or cheating involved, none of that exists here. To be frank, if I had a floor supervisor make such a rulling, I would be calling for the shift supervisor because the ruling is so wrong.
VitaiSlade	Correcting my posts	#9	[-]
Member Posts: 42 (05/30/08 10:02) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I recently discussed this issue with my instructor at my dealer school. I have found that, as bad as a call that it is, it is still a correct call. As a player and as a dealer, it looks like it should be a horrendous call, but that is why the dealers have the floor to call about this issue. That way, players can be mad at the floor instead of the dealer and the dealer will still continue to get tokes and don't have to worry about upsetting the players. I agree and still stand behind that it is a very bad call, but in most poker rooms, it would still be a correct one. -One player to a hand -You must protect your hand at all times -No player should touch another players cards
Whiggi		#10	[-]
Member Posts: 13 (05/31/08 09:59) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	part of dealing ANY game is being able to read players and understand their intentions at my casino if a player nods at you it means check if a player says yeah why not, it means call if a player trys to flip over his cards, it means hes trying to flip over his cards you cant declare a hand dead unless its going forward and they are making no attempt to flip them over you gotta give some benefit of the doubt what if they got was missing 3 fingers? what if he had a condition which caused him to shake all the time and not be able to control his own hand movements.. would you still go buy house rules? We all understand the importance of dealing a fair game, and to me dealing fair is dealing by the house rules, but sometimes you gotta include common sense. If this player is ever in seat 1 and is called all in by another guy in seat 8 with pocket aces, and he fumbles his hand accidently, and other dealer will let that slide, and now this guy is going to get shafted twice

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This a dead hand??

This a dead hand??