THE UNION DEBATE

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Geffen Izlude		#81	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1803 06/19/08 12:30 Mod	NoStinkinBadges wrote: *well NSB you could of saved yourself a lot of time and just answered the question with the truth.* I don't know the truth with respect to why CWs get paid whatever they get paid. I suspect neither do you (what DO cocktail waitresses and bartenders earn in "a casino"?). In any event, if they are making relatively good wages and benefits, and that's due to the negotiation power of their union, WHY AREN'T THE DEALERS JOINING THAT UNION? No, don't tell me. Let me just wallow in my obvious ignorance as regards the benefits to dealers of foregoing the opportunity to join a union that is very present and very powerful in Nevada, to instead hook up with an autoworkers union that is a shadow of its former self in its own main centers of membership and power, and zero in the state in question. And why isn't the Culinary Workers Union actively courting the dealers in Nevada? Has someone made them an offer they couldn't refuse? Was that part of the last round of their negotiations? Or were the (Wynn) dealers afraid that the Culinary would start asking for a share of the tips also? Either way, Nevada dealers joining the TWU or other similar union is an exercise in futility. Actually I think the casinos made a huge concession to the Culinary union to not organize their dealers.
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NoStinkinBadges		#82	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2219 06/19/08 10:22 Dealer/TGS	*Actually I think the casinos made a huge concession to the Culinary union to not organize their dealers.* I thought the dealers were the union? Would the Culinary Union have turned them down for organization? Did they turn them down? If so, what does that say about unions? And what does it portend for the dealers' organization under the TWU brand? Isn't the entire episode one big red herring ultimately going nowhere? Somehow, I get the idea that the Wynn thing was a face-saving exercise, akin to fighting a huge guy in a bar who insulted your wife. They'll get hammered, but they'll still get bragging rights for "standing up for themselves." In the same way as pro-union posters are saying dealers shouldn't wait until it's too late, I say they shouldn't rush in until that particular case runs its course. I am suspicious about the dearth of real union-related information coming out of the Wynn these days. I wonder if its dealers' collective attention span has reached its limit yet? These boards were USED big time by temporary freeloaders, eager to drum up support for their "cause," and nowhere to be see when it's time to share information with respect to progress and outcome. If the Wynn unionization experience has been so wonderful, why aren't those dealers outside your casino handing out propaganda? Expect a public bust-up and parting of the ways of the Wynn dealers and the union very soon. Last Edited By: NoStinkinBadges 06/19/08 10:24. Edited 1 time.
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Wynnbabies		#83	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 47 06/19/08 03:20	NSB, your prediction will come true shortly after the Rio dealers see through the bus drivers union propaganda and realize its the economy that is hurting them and they vote down the union. I stated previously it would be the first nail in the coffin!
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anotherwynndealer	why will it fail?	#84	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 78 06/19/08 04:27	The only reason why it will fail "in my opinion" is that dealers deal with peoples emotions "people losing money" on a daily basis. I feel that, that leads to most dealers to be the most negative group of people I have ever worked with. Stick that with trying to manage and get 500 people to think the same way in a place where the dealers love screwing other dealers. I have never worked with so many me, me, me, me people. If people were to just mind their own business I feel things would get better but the all the negative people is really a downer in my life. Like I said, just my opinion
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NoStinkinBadges		#85	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2219 06/19/08 04:33 Dealer/TGS	*I have never worked with so many me, me, me, me people...* *all the negative people is really a downer in my life.* Oh, it's all about you, isn't it, anotherwynndealer?
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anotherwynndealer	didn't say that	#86	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 78 06/19/08 10:19	its not all about me me me. I just wish that people weren't so damn negative all the time. I would just love to go to work where everyone smiled and didn't talk about each other behind their backs or talk about the stupid player on their table. The day we become more positive is the day we can acually start to get things done and make more money (in tips), again in my opinion
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NoStinkinBadges		#87	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2219 06/20/08 01:05 Dealer/TGS	That was a joke. However, it seems that you are very capable of producing irony without assistance from me. Haven't you anything positive to say about these negative people?
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burnout		#88	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 10 06/20/08 03:42	Thanks for the responses. I have more questions. For the pros, a strike is the worst possible outcome. It's unlikely, I know. I still have questions about it. Who goes on strike? Is it everybody or just who wants to? If other dealers go out on strike can I work? I know it would be ugly. If there's a lockout, who gets locked out? Is it just people who sent in cards or is it all dealers or some other thing? For the antis, I think of culinary's situation as a best outcome for dealers. If I could turn back time I would be a bartender who wouldn't we wasting his time here but I can't. I am where I am. Please don't tell me how stupid my questions are. I asked about waitresses because I talk to them. I know union ones and non union ones. Non union waitresses do not get free medical. Anyway, how can I make myself "wanted" enough to stop the company from chipping away at more of my income and benefits? I'm not being sarcastic. I still can't figure out how to play their game when the rules keep changing. What specifically can I do to protect what I've got without a union?
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NoStinkinBadges		#89	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2219 06/20/08 04:21 Dealer/TGS	*Please don't tell me how stupid my questions are.* Questions can't be stupid. For everything and everyone else, the jury's still out. I asked about waitresses because I talk to them. How many did you talk to? Did you get them to sign affidavits? How can we be sure that what you/they say is true? *I know union ones and non union ones. Non union waitresses do not get free medical.* Is that countrywide, or does it just refer to the few waitresses you spoke to? Did you speak to any non-union waitresses, or do you just know some? *Anyway, how can I make myself "wanted" enough to stop the company from chipping away at more of my income and benefits?* First, the company can't chip away at your income and benefits; they can only chip away at what they pay you, what they grant you in benefits, and what they allow you to make in tips. Your income and benefits are only *yours* when you have them in your hand; i.e., AFTER they've left the control of your employer. If you quit, you'll still have *your* income and benefits, just probably reduced or zero income and benefits. And the answer to your question is that you can't stop your employer from making legal business decisions. All you can hope to do is make yourself valuable enough to him to influence those decisions in your favor. *I'm not being sarcastic. I still can't figure out how to play their game when the rules keep changing. What specifically can I do to protect what I've got without a union?* You haven't GOT anything except what you GOT last week (unless, as I suspect, you've already spent it). How do you expect to know the answers when you can't even formulate the questions properly? The real question is this: What specifically can I do to convince my employer than I'm worth employing this week at last weeks wages, benefits and opportunities? The answer is: 1. Disabuse yourself of the notion that anyone owes you anything, specifically an income. 2. Disabuse yourself of the notion that past performance or behavior counts for anything. It's what you do right now that counts. Or would the fact that your boss paid you last week count for anything if he failed to pay you for your work this week? 3. Be the most valuable employee you can be. Fix your bad habits. Don't break any rules. Be flexible. Don't whine. Continually educate yourself, industry-specifically and in general. Be thankful for your employment. 4. Train yourself not to live in a state of irrational fear. There's nothing to fear but fear itself. 5. Drive to work every day enumerating every single thing in your life you are thankful for. When the day arrives where you still have things left to list when you get there, you'll be on your way to being free. If you can get those things down, you won't NEED to protect yourself. You'll either be employed or very employable. Whatever happens, you'll be happy, and that's what it's all about. The need for protection is a concern of the fearful. Fear arises from doubt. Have faith, or get faith, in your ability to overcome whatever life throws at you. Nothing can work me damage except myself. The harm that I sustain I carry about with me, and never am a real sufferer but by my own fault. St Bernard of Clairvaux Last Edited By: NoStinkinBadges 06/20/08 04:29. Edited 3 times.
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NoStinkinBadges		#90	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2219 06/20/08 04:50 Dealer/TGS	One more important thing I've learned in my time is this: Your job is not what your employer told you is was back when you were hired. Your job is whatever he tells you it is each day. Now, you can whine and kick and scream and deny the truth of that, but it'll only lead to frustration and unhappiness for you, and eventually, perhaps, the door, a stroke or a heart attack. Accepting it is half the battle of working for another person. Just decide to do what you're told to do, and accept whatever comes up the pike, until you no longer want to work for that person. Then quit. A union may prevent some of that happening, but it won't do anything about the build up of feelings of resentment inside you that your employer tried, or is trying, to "abuse" you. In fact, it's in a union's interests to continually sow rumors regarding plans and plots for such abuse. You may save or gain a few dollars or hours, but at what psychological and emotional cost? In what other human relationship would you view such interference as a good thing? Would you, for example, consider employing a "union" to "protect" you from your spouse? What do such "unions" (lawyers) usually advise you to do when such a relationship hits rocky ground? Does such advice usually lead to happiness - even if financial victories are won? A quick survey of the general demeanor of the pro-union posters here should convince you that even having thoughts of union formation generally embitters a worker. You spend about a quarter of your life (a third of your waking life) at work. Shouldn't you be looking for happiness (contentment, job satisfaction, fun, interest, etc.) during those hours. Have you ever heard a union promise anyone any of that?
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kenodave		#91	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 599 06/22/08 11:06	http://www.lvrj.com/news/20638794.html This was my concern about the unions.
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swamper1	Ever Been in a Union?	#92	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2 06/23/08 06:01	i was a long distance operator and in their union for a couple of years. paid my dues and the whole time not one union person ever approached me asked how i was doing or if they could do anything for me. it was a the communication workers union. i have been a dealer for over thirty years and i wonder what a union of bus drivers are going to do for dealers? you think they care about your issues? think again....it's your union fees that they want they are a business that runs on money- your money IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A UNION ----FORM YOUR OWN! don't let a bunch of folks from the east coast make your decisions for you
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Geffen Izlude		#93	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1803 06/23/08 11:13 Mod	swamper1 wrote: i wonder what a union of bus drivers are going to do for dealers? It's a union of dealers. Your fellow dealers to be exact, who better to help dealers than other dealers. Yes the TWU was originally created to assist Transport Workers, But the union is made up of your fellow dealers. Your shop steward is not going to be a bus driver! when will people understand this concept? The name of the union is just the name. Look beyond it and you will find that the whole name is Transport Workers Union, Las Vegas Dealers Local 721, AFL-CIO.
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anotherDealer		#94	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 280 06/23/08 11:22	To swamper1: Dealers forming our own union was looked at years ago. The logistics were daunting. You would have to collect (let's say) $100 from a thousand dealers just to take the first step. Then after many months, you would need to hold (and win) Union votes, and then hire contract negotiators (more money). You asked what the TWU will do for the dealers? Here is what they ARE doing: At the wynn, the company cannot take a bigger percentage of the tokes. At Caesars, the company cannot unilaterally take the tokes at all. The companies cannot raise health insurance premiums or reduce benefits. The companies cannot make any unilateral (one-sided) changes to the dealers work environment. The companies are now bound by law to negotiate a contract with the dealers. And as far as the Union being a business that runs on money: is that bad? Do you instead want to negotiate (for free!) with Human Resources one-on-one? Do you expect a volunteer negotiator to do your bidding? For the protection and representation we will get for our Union dues, it is a small price to pay. How much is each wynn dealer paying (unwillingly) to subsidize their supervisors pay? A lot more than the Union dues will be. By the way, not one dealer has paid any dues yet. That doesn't happen until a contract is agreed upon by a majority of the dealers at a property. Dealers are participating in the contract negotiations side by side with the Union professionals. The east coast people are not making the decisions for us. Realize that the TWU has been in existence longer than any gaming company. TWU members help get the 40 million visitors here to Las Vegas safely. It's the professionals (lawyers, contract negotiators, organizers) who represent those workers that have the ability to sit with us at the bargaining table and represent us. The professionals learn what we have (pay, benefits, tokes), they learn what we want, then they negotiate FOR us, alongside us. The answer to the question: "Why the TWU?" is that they stepped up to the plate to organize and represent us when no one else would. Not one other union was interested. Not one. The older dealers I worked with through the years told stories of various union organizing efforts through the years. One in the 1960s. In the mid-1970s I heard it was the Pipefitters Union at the Frontier. (A few failed lawsuits in the 70s and 80s. The casinos won.) The most recent previous Union effort was in 1999-2000. Many unions were called by dealers around town. The Culinary, the Teamsters, Steelworkers, Stagehands (IATSE), UAW, Operating Engineers, Plumbers and Pipefitters. They were not interested. The Teamsters and Culinary probably have deals with the hotels that they will leave the dealers alone and not organize us. In return they have a bit of an easier time getting what they want at the bargaining table. In the 2000 effort the Teamsters were stirring up dissent among some dealers after the TWU stepped up to the plate. The Teamsters misled a good portion of the dealers into thinking they (the Teamsters) would represent us. After several weeks of disruption, the Teamsters announced they would not represent us. This caused a delay in the TWU's efforts and a rift among the dealers. Soon after that, the Teamsters were at the negotiating table with most of the major hotels and they were successful in their attempt to gain a better contract for their members. Some think that getting "involved" with the dealers and causing that dissent had a little to do with their as-usual successful negotiations. The Culinary always relies on the tired line "We don't know anything about the dealers. That's not what we do". Call them. They'll tell you. The only Union that decided to come to organize and represent Las Vegas dealers was the Transport Workers Union of America (TWU). If you're happy with the ability of management to issue a memo and do anything they want, that's fine. Most of us were content with the situation around town until the wynn started stealing the dealers tokes. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Cascadian		#95	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 100 06/23/08 11:53	I am working in California's tribal casino for over 6 years now; And I am so sick and tired of their unethical behaviors. How do I go about getting an Union to come in my casino? We all have to have compensations for the work that we've done. I don't mind paying for a right cause. I really appreciate your input on this matter. If and in fact, the Union does not do any good or benefit to the Dealers, then why would the casino owners or operators be so hesitated to let the Union in?
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samiamiam		#96	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1030 06/23/08 12:43 Soon to be former moderator	Cascadian, your inquiry has nothing to do with the debate. Start another thread. I'll copy your post and send it back to you. ______________________________________________________________ I have concerns here just like most. I may not deal anymore but I know if I lost my job, odds are I would deal again if I choose to stay in this bullshit business. I have posted before that I'm not "anti-union" - I was raised in a union family of stagehands and I have respect for that union. I remember picketing as a small child when the stagehands had their issues supporting live musicians whose days were numbered back in the 70's. and I remember the big strike in 1976 where the Stagehands joined the Culinary and rallied together. My concern is the same today as it was this time last year. I just can't see the TWU as THE answer. IF the Culinary was THE union, my attitude would be different. The Culinary is Nevada's strongest union and has done well here helping workers. Some have said here that there is some sort of "don't touch the dealers" agreement. I don't buy that. If thousands of dealers protested in front of the Culinary, what would happen? The Culinary would organise dealers, that's what would happen. So why isn't there such support? Because "our" concerns are not strong enough! There is no "unity" among dealers. There is no "brotherhood" This union drive should be (or could be) a slam dunk IF Culinary was THE union!. I think even the UAW is an odd choice for casino dealers but since they are actively involved back east, wouldn't you think that Vegas would be the mother load? The grand prize? Where are they? You are asking us to except what we can get. And if we accept her, we are stuck with her. I would rather sleep with a gal I want and desire. BIG TITS! Bring on the big tits! Sorry guys, If I'm going to sleep with whoever I can get, I'm not going to be very happy in the long run. To me, any union less than the Culinary won't work! The TWU is going to be a hard sell. Right idea, wrong union Last Edited By: samiamiam 06/23/08 01:30. Edited 1 time.
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anotherDealer		#97	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 280 06/23/08 02:06	To samiamiam: The Culinary wants nothing to do with the dealers. No one knows for sure why not. For God's sake they have sided with the wynn in their toke grab! They support it! D. Taylor (Culinary secretary-treasurer) is the biggest sell-out in the city. Frankly if they wanted to organize the dealers now, I would suspect ulterior motives. And do you think they would care if there was a demonstration in front of their building? Not at all. Not one union had the balls to step up for the dealers. When the TWU did, that was enough for me. Go ahead and waste your time asking about other unions for the dealers. Make some calls to them. Here's what you'll hear: "That's not what we do". "We're not in an organizing mode right now". "Wow. You dealers ARE getting screwed. Sorry, can't help you". "Dealers? Don't know anything about them. Call someone else". "No. We don't do that". "Gee. Not now". If you're not a union advocate, that's fine. If you don't like the TWU, that's fine. Just don't delude yourself and others that there's another union interested in the dealers. The TWU has a gaming division now. We should all support them and the properties around town that have signed on.
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samiamiam		#98	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 1030 06/23/08 02:25 Soon to be former moderator	anotherDealer I respect that, I really do. I don't agree that if a very large group of dealers went to the Culinary IN FORCE, UNITED with their concerns that the 226 would slam the door. It would be a public relations nightmare for them to do so. It would be national if not international news. My point is this. As bad as it may be, it's not bad enough. Combine that with THE FACT that there no unity or brotherhood among dealers in mass in southern Nevada. If there was, the largest and strongest union would expand their efforts IF they knew for a fact that there was such support for reform. There isn't.
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NoStinkinBadges		#99	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 2219 06/23/08 04:25 Dealer/TGS	*The name of the union is just the name. Look beyond it and you will find that the whole name is Transport Workers Union, Las Vegas Dealers Local 721, AFL-CIO.* That's a cop out answer. swamper1's question was entirely legitimate: *i wonder what a union of bus drivers are going to do for dealers?* You may say that the union is a union of dealers. You may say that the shop stewards will be dealers. What you can't say is that dealers have any power, or will have any power as dealers. If the "bus drivers' union" has power, the question comes right back around (rephrased, but the same): What do you think they'll do for dealers? You may form your own answer, or use the handy multiple choice selection below: A. Nothing B. Zero C. Zilch D. Nada E. 没什么 F. Call out the entire "bus driver" membership is support of the dealers' cause (dealers, of course, on strike). ********* anotherdealer: The Culinary wants nothing to do with the dealers. No one knows for sure why not. For God's sake they have sided with the wynn in their toke grab! They support it! D. Taylor (Culinary secretary-treasurer) is the biggest sell-out in the city. Frankly if they wanted to organize the dealers now, I would suspect ulterior motives. Not one union had the balls to step up for the dealers. When the TWU did, that was enough for me.** Can you spot the flaw in the logic? (Hint: Follow the color-coding). Last Edited By: NoStinkinBadges 06/23/08 04:29. Edited 1 time.
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AlwaysBetRed		#100	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 279 06/23/08 05:17	The Culinary Union is the one who is turning their heads while Steve Wynn extorts tips from the restaurant servers and NOW the cocktail waitresses. I would just be THRILLED with that kind of backing!
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THE UNION DEBATE

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