Dealers Tokes

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Psand		#11	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (03/11/08 11:49) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	seanof30306 wrote: Psand wrote: *Quote:* But, since you guys are Union, you probably have to pool the poker tokes?? There si no reason that a union contract could not specify that dealers keep their own. The whole point of unionizing is solidarity; of giving up individualism to have the power of the group. Dealers keeping their own tokes flies in the face of that philosophy. Understand, I am against unionization and tip pooling. I'm just pointing that out. Thius simply isn't true. The whole point of unionizing isn't solidarirty. The primary point is collective bargaining. And in collective bargaining you can ceratinly bargain for dealers keeping their own.
ellen4441.biddingfortravel		#12	[-]
Member Posts: 11 (03/19/08 01:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	My previous casino (in California) got sued by the dealers, cause we were forced to pay $2.50 an hour in tips towards the house. And the dealers won the class action suit. I already had moved back to NJ, but received a check for about $2200.00 (after taxes) Apparently, there was some sort of California law that it was okay for the casino to take a cut, but not if it was going towards paying managment. Not sure what your laws are in Topeka, Kansas. I agree with you, that the casinos should pay their floorpeople themselves, and not depend on the dealers. I currently work in AC, and we are not allowed to give the floorpeople anything. We could even get in trouble if we do... I agree 100% that I am sick and tired of seeing dealers being ungrateful for tips, and not saying thank you, etc!!! I'm always very appreciative. And always say thank you. I even recently saw this in a real nice card room in Florida, where supposedly the dealers are making a killing. Half the time, all they did was bang on the toke box when they got a tip; it was so wrong!!!!
seanof30306		#13	[-]
Member Posts: 158 (04/04/08 10:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Psand wrote: seanof30306 wrote: Psand wrote: *Quote:* But, since you guys are Union, you probably have to pool the poker tokes?? There si no reason that a union contract could not specify that dealers keep their own. The whole point of unionizing is solidarity; of giving up individualism to have the power of the group. Dealers keeping their own tokes flies in the face of that philosophy. Understand, I am against unionization and tip pooling. I'm just pointing that out. Thius simply isn't true. The whole point of unionizing isn't solidarirty. The primary point is collective bargaining. And in collective bargaining you can ceratinly bargain for dealers keeping their own. Sorry I'm replying after such a long time, but I'm not getting email notifications on subscribed topics anymore. Psand, collective bargaining and solidatarity go hand in hand, as far as unions are concerned. The whole philosophy behind unionism is strength in numbers, what one gets, all get, the indivisual is subordinate to the collective, etc. I have no definitive data, but, I'd be willing to bet that far more of the unionized cardrooms in the country pool tips than don't. I'd think it would be pretty hard to get a union voted in without tip pooling, as more dealers would benefit from that than those that would be hurt by it, and it takes a majority to get the union in. And ellen4441, in my room, they withhold 1.50 per hour into a tip pool for the floor and the kiosk. I actually prefer it. Since that pool has been initiated, we aren't allowed to tip the floor and kiosk other than that 1.50 per hour. There is now absolutely no corruption; no "juice" to get a rotation, etc. It's all on the up and up. Also, that 1.50 per hour is tax deductible as mandatory unreimbursed business expense. It adds up.
Psand		#14	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (04/05/08 01:09) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	There are a whole lot of Union cocktail waitresses who don't pool tips in this town, as well as other service people who rely on tips and don't pool. Sure they may have to share a portion of their tips with support staff (ie.e waiters tipping out busboys, cocktail waitresses tipping out the barstaff) but they still don't pool among themselves and in many casinos they are union. And I can't speak for everywhere, but in Vegas tip pooling would not benefit a single dealer. Simply look at how tips are pooled in the pit in Vegas and that will explain all. Last Edited By: Psand 04/05/08 01:11. Edited 1 times.
seanof30306		#15	[-]
Member Posts: 158 (04/09/08 10:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I'm not suggesting I think pooling tips is a good idea; I don't. What I am saying is pooling tips is one of the primary selling points of union organizers. We had one coming into my room a few years back. He used everything he could come up with to try and convince people to unionize; race, gender, etc., but the argument he made most forcefully was how "unfair" it was that a few dealers made so much more than everyone else. As one of those few, I wasn't at all keen on the idea of tip pooling, and became quite unpopular with the people wanting to unionize when I'd suggest they work on their speed, knowledge of the game, etc. if they wanted to earn more. With the people who were pro-union, tip pooling was their main reason for liking the idea. The union organizer had them convinced the earnings were so "unfairly" distributed that 3/4 of the dealers in the casino would see more money through pooled tips. I know dealers in Detroit; they're union, and they pool. I know another guy who deals in a union room, I think it's in the Chicago area. If not there, somewhere else in the Midwest, and they pool. I'd venture to say more union rooms pool their tips than not. It's pretty easy to check; we have poker dealers from all over the country on here. Union dealers, check in! Pool/no pool?
Psand		#16	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (04/09/08 04:10) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	seanof30306 wrote: I'm not suggesting I think pooling tips is a good idea; I don't. What I am saying is pooling tips is one of the primary selling points of union organizers. We had one coming into my room a few years back. He used everything he could come up with to try and convince people to unionize; race, gender, etc., but the argument he made most forcefully was how "unfair" it was that a few dealers made so much more than everyone else. As one of those few, I wasn't at all keen on the idea of tip pooling, and became quite unpopular with the people wanting to unionize when I'd suggest they work on their speed, knowledge of the game, etc. if they wanted to earn more. With the people who were pro-union, tip pooling was their main reason for liking the idea. The union organizer had them convinced the earnings were so "unfairly" distributed that 3/4 of the dealers in the casino would see more money through pooled tips. I know dealers in Detroit; they're union, and they pool. I know another guy who deals in a union room, I think it's in the Chicago area. If not there, somewhere else in the Midwest, and they pool. I'd venture to say more union rooms pool their tips than not. It's pretty easy to check; we have poker dealers from all over the country on here. Union dealers, check in! Pool/no pool? I think the number of union rooms is too small to really have any significance in this sort of poll. And a secondary issue you would need to address is how many of those who pool are pooling only poker tips, or share in a casinowide pool. It is my understanding for instance that the reasoin the Foxwoods Poker dealers pool there tokes is that when the room opened and they raised the issue they all wanted to pool with the pit because poker wasn't a big money maker and they wante dto get the benefits of sharing the pit tokes (now they are stuck with that decision even though the roles are reversed) The union organizer who tried to sell you on pooling may not have understood poker and the culture of poker rooms, and clearly there would be reason to want to avoid any union which did seemed to not understand the wants of the workers. But that does not mean all unions are the same way. But again the point is that oif the dealers that make up the union want a pool then the union can negotiate that. If the dealers that make up the union don't want to pool the union can negotiate for that.
seanof30306		#17	[-]
Member Posts: 158 (04/09/08 08:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Psand wrote: seanof30306 wrote: I'm not suggesting I think pooling tips is a good idea; I don't. What I am saying is pooling tips is one of the primary selling points of union organizers. We had one coming into my room a few years back. He used everything he could come up with to try and convince people to unionize; race, gender, etc., but the argument he made most forcefully was how "unfair" it was that a few dealers made so much more than everyone else. As one of those few, I wasn't at all keen on the idea of tip pooling, and became quite unpopular with the people wanting to unionize when I'd suggest they work on their speed, knowledge of the game, etc. if they wanted to earn more. With the people who were pro-union, tip pooling was their main reason for liking the idea. The union organizer had them convinced the earnings were so "unfairly" distributed that 3/4 of the dealers in the casino would see more money through pooled tips. I know dealers in Detroit; they're union, and they pool. I know another guy who deals in a union room, I think it's in the Chicago area. If not there, somewhere else in the Midwest, and they pool. I'd venture to say more union rooms pool their tips than not. It's pretty easy to check; we have poker dealers from all over the country on here. Union dealers, check in! Pool/no pool? I think the number of union rooms is too small to really have any significance in this sort of poll. And a secondary issue you would need to address is how many of those who pool are pooling only poker tips, or share in a casinowide pool. It is my understanding for instance that the reasoin the Foxwoods Poker dealers pool there tokes is that when the room opened and they raised the issue they all wanted to pool with the pit because poker wasn't a big money maker and they wante dto get the benefits of sharing the pit tokes (now they are stuck with that decision even though the roles are reversed) The union organizer who tried to sell you on pooling may not have understood poker and the culture of poker rooms, and clearly there would be reason to want to avoid any union which did seemed to not understand the wants of the workers. But that does not mean all unions are the same way. But again the point is that oif the dealers that make up the union want a pool then the union can negotiate that. If the dealers that make up the union don't want to pool the union can negotiate for that. So, let me get this straight. Whether poker rooms that are already union pool their tips or not is irrelevant to a discussion of whether unionized poker rooms pool their tips, or not? And I am fully capable of grasping the fact that the union organizer may not have understood poker and the culture of poker rooms. In my opinion (and experience with union organizers), he didn't care. He was there to organize the workforce, and he would say or do anything towards that end. Anyone who does spend any time in a poker room knows there is normally resentment towards the highest earners from those who earn less. He tried to play on that, because he saw there were a lot more resenters than there were resentees. Regardless, that is not the issue. You clearly believe you can pick and choose what you take or don't when the union comes in, sort of like a breakfast buffet. I, on the other hand, believe when you marry someone, you take the farts along with the spooning. If you are correct, then please provide specific examples of poker rooms which are union and which do not pool tips, and acknowledge that poker rooms which are union and do pool tips are relevant rebuttals to your assertion. PS: Foxwoods pools tips because that is what is dictated in the compact between the Mashantucket Peqout Tribe and The State of Conneticut, and has nothing to do with whether the pit made more or not. Regardless of any distinctions that you or I might make, in Conneticut, in the eyes of the law, poker is a table/pit game, and is subject to the same rules and regulations which govern them.
Psand		#18	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (04/09/08 09:09) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	So, let me get this straight. Whether poker rooms that are already union pool their tips or not is irrelevant to a discussion of whether unionized poker rooms pool their tips, or not? Not at all. However one can not extrapolate from the practice of a few union cardrooms that the practice of pooling tips is inherently part of unionization. Anyone who does spend any time in a poker room knows there is normally resentment towards the highest earners from those who earn less. He tried to play on that, because he saw there were a lot more resenters than there were resentees. I have not seen that at all. I have seen some resentment towards dealers who are perceived as getting special treatment from management but never resentment towards dealers for making more tokes. Regardless, that is not the issue. You clearly believe you can pick and choose what you take or don't when the union comes in, sort of like a breakfast buffet. I, on the other hand, believe when you marry someone, you take the farts along with the spooning. A union is not a partner. You don't join a union to be married to it, you join a union so that the union can represent you. Now I agree that an individual dealer may not like what his union does in representing him. But fundamentally the union members as a whole are the ones who direct the union. If you have a union representing poker dealers and the overall sentiment of the poker dealers is to protect a keep your own system, then the union will try to negotiate that point in its collective bargaining or the members will find a new representative. However collecti9ve bargianing is a negotiation and the union certainly can't unilaterally impose that on managemnt. Also where a union represents a larger class of workers -- say all the dealers including pit dealers the wanst and desires of one group may conflict with the wants and needs of another group.essentially making it impossible for the union to properly represent both. If you are correct, then please provide specific examples of poker rooms which are union and which do not pool tips My point . . . that unionization does not require tip pooling is already proven by the existence of a large class of unionized tip earners in the Las Vegas in the culinary union who do not pool tips. If cocktail waitresses can be union and keep their own, certainly dealers can. PS: Foxwoods pools tips because that is what is dictated in the compact between the Mashantucket Peqout Tribe and The State of Conneticut, and has nothing to do with whether the pit made more or not. Regardless of any distinctions that you or I might make, in Conneticut, in the eyes of the law, poker is a table/pit game, and is subject to the same rules and regulations which govern them. can you provide a link to the language in teh compact compact or the regulations which you say govern this. I can't find any such language (but i did only a quick search) . I am fairly certain that I have heard from Foxwood dealers that there was a vote by the dealers on this issue and I can't imagine why the issue would ever be addressed in the gaming compact.
seanof30306		#19	[-]
Member Posts: 158 (04/16/08 08:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Cocktail waitresses are not poker dealers. There are numerous poker rooms in this country where the poker dealers are required to be members of a union to work there. Whether they pool their tips, or not, is absolutely, 100% relevant to the question of whether unionism and pooled tips go hand in hand in the poker industry. Please provide examples of poker rooms which are union, and which do not pool tips, which would validate your position, or concede the point. You know, I'm sure this will be hard for you to believe, but you cannot possible be right every single time. As far as the compact is concerned, I asked a friend who was a shift manager at The Mohegan Sun prior to their closing their poker room in 2003 (It has since reopened, albeit with PokerPro tables). According to him, Mohegan Sun pooled tips, as Foxwoods does, and they did so because the State requires all table game dealers to pool their tips as an anti-corruption measure. As far as the State of Conneticut is concerned, poker is a table game. I'm going to take the word of someone who was in management at a poker room in Conneticut over a guy in Vegas who is "fairly certain he heard from a couple of Foxwoods dealers" that they voted on it. Sorry.
Psand		#20	[-]
Member Posts: 978 (04/16/08 09:45) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Cocktail waitresses are not poker dealers. There are numerous poker rooms in this country where the poker dealers are required to be members of a union to work there. Whether they pool their tips, or not, is absolutely, 100% relevant to the question of whether unionism and pooled tips go hand in hand in the poker industry. Please provide examples of poker rooms which are union, and which do not pool tips, which would validate your position, or concede the point. This logically flawed -- your premise is that unionism and solidarity require tip pooling top ensure that people are making equal amounts. With that as your premise why would Poker dealing and cocktail waitressing be different in regard to this. Further lets clarify what we are talking about. How many poker rooms have unionized dealers? i don't know the answer but I'm pretty confident that its a pretty small number. Of that small number i have no idea how many pool tokes. But it doesn't matter because even if 100% of that small number pooled tokes that doesn't mean that pooling tokes is inherent in the nature of dealers unions. As far as the compact is concerned, I asked a friend who was a shift manager at The Mohegan Sun prior to their closing their poker room in 2003 (It has since reopened, albeit with PokerPro tables). According to him, Mohegan Sun pooled tips, as Foxwoods does, and they did so because the State requires all table game dealers to pool their tips as an anti-corruption measure. As far as the State of Conneticut is concerned, poker is a table game. I'm going to take the word of someone who was in management at a poker room in Conneticut over a guy in Vegas who is "fairly certain he heard from a couple of Foxwoods dealers" that they voted on it. Well your free to believe what you want. One thing i learned long ago is that shift managers in Indian casinos rarely read the gambling compact between the state and the and the indian tribe, and tend to repeat things they are told as though they are gospel. I went online and looked up the Compact and found no language addressing tip pooling. i searched for other laws or regulations on the issue and could not find any. But I don't really have access to much in the way of tribal legal materials. So I will continue to doubt what you say your friend the shift manager at Mohegan Sun told you the Compact said. A floorman at Turning Stone told me that the reason they charged a $2 per day membership fee to play poker in their room because under NY law you could have legal poker in a proivate club, and this was the way the tribe made their poker room a private club. He said this like he belived it, he told the dealers this and they repeat it, he tells players this and they repeat it, But guess what. NY law does not permit operating a poker room in a private club, and the fact that a floorman says it does, does not change that fact. An interesting side note: as I search the web I have found several references to the Mohegan Sun Poker Dealers having kept their own tips. However i have not seen anything which confirms either way, I will speak with a friend who worked out there to confirm.

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