Folding out of turn

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jewito	Folding out of turn		Lead	[-]
Member Posts: 5 01/15/08 09:23	Hi... this is my first ever post here although I've enjoyed reading this forum for a LOT of years. I see this happen all the time and was just wondering what the proper procedure is...... someone folds there cards before it's their turn. Why doesn't the dealer muck the cards and caution the player not to fold out of turn, rather than leave the cards in front of the player until it really is their turn... giving them the option of changing their mind.
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Psand	Re: Folding out of turn	#1	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 933 01/15/08 09:53 Moderator	The dealer should take the cards and warn the player. However keep in mind that if the dealers attention is on the left side of the table where the action is he may not see player in the 9 seat toss his cards in.
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seanof30306	Re: Folding out of turn	#2	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 135 01/15/08 06:47	I disagree. Action out of turn is not binding. I remind the player to please wait his or her turn, and indicate where the action actually is. The player's hand is not dead, and when the action actually gets back to them, their "fold" is not binding. While I leave the cards where they were (as long as they didn't touch the muck, or other players' cards), but, I will pull them into the muck the moment the action is on them, unless they have grabbed them back. If they continue to do this, whether through inattention or attempts at angle shooting, the warning will get progressively sterner, and may lead to their going home for a night, at the floor's discretion. I'm confused, psand. In another thread, you're letting players pull cards out of the muck pile because you feel we should not be looking for reasons to kill players' hands, yet here, you're killing a live hand. I don't get it.
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Psand	Re: Folding out of turn	#3	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 933 01/15/08 10:39 Moderator	No I'm not pulling cards out of the muck. In the other thread I'm not killing a hand merely because it touched the muck. There is a world of difference between in the muck and touching the muck. Personally I don't think your approach here to the premature folds are inappropriate. It would be perfectly acceptable to me to leave the cards where they are until the action is on that player, however I have not met a floorperson or manager who would agree with that policy. So as a practical matter I have to say the correct procedure is that which my supervisors direct and that is to kill hands as soon as they are tossed in (there are exceptions...In my room it is policy to protect a hand where the big blind folds to no raise, or a player who just won the side pot tosses his cards him forgetting about the side pot). There is a very tangible difference between this issue and the cards touched the muck scenario. In this case the player intended to fold. In the touched the muck thread the player intended to table his hand.
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seanof30306	Re: Folding out of turn	#4	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 135 01/15/08 10:54	Well, I work in and have always played in cardrooms where that policy is in effect. If action out of turn is only binding under certain circumstances, then how can a player fold their hand out of turn, unless those circumstances have been met??
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Psand	Re: Folding out of turn	#5	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 933 01/15/08 11:34 Moderator	we are just going to have to disagree on this. on a side note, the OP Private messaged me and explained the whole scenario and it wasn't really a player mucking out of turn. the scenario was at showdown. 3 players in the hand. One is all-in and there is a side pot. 1 Player in the side pot turns over his cards. Now the all in player tosses in his cards facedown (before the other player in the sidepot does anything) I have never seen a dealer refuse to muck the cards in this situation. And its a fairly common situation.
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seanof30306	Re: Folding out of turn	#6	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 135 01/15/08 11:47	That's clearly a different situation than what we've been discussing. In that case, it's irrelevant.
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aceshigh1976	Re: Folding out of turn	#7	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 23 01/16/08 04:19	if cards are folded and go over the dealer line while game still in play then cards would normerly be deemed as a fold or as the other posters would say they would be reminded of the rules about folding out of turn or if the cards touch the muck cards then their cards are dead no retreavil
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seanof30306	Re: Folding out of turn	#8	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 135 01/16/08 08:12	A hand can not be declared dead when it has been "folded" out of turn. Folding requires action on a player's part. That player cannot intiate action until the action is on them, therefore, they cannot fold their hand. The only way they can kill their hand when the action is not on them is to throw it into the muck pile, onto the floor, or into another players hand.
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PhreakDealer	Regarding action out of turn...	#9	[url]	[-]
Member Posts: 82 04/17/08 08:41	My personal opinion on all this talk about 'action out of turn' can merely be summed up by stating that the words 'substantial action' need to be defined and learned inside and out before making such a decision on things like actions out of turn. Furthermore, the reason this needs to be taken into consideration is to determine if this player has caused anything to happen behind them. If someone on the table is influencing what others do by acting out of turn then the decision making could possibly be affected. This is something I would say should be left up to the suit, but would be nice if the dealers understood the concept of substantial action to ensure table control more effectively..... Does your casino allow 'Angling'? Last Edited By: PhreakDealer 04/17/08 08:44. Edited 2 times.
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